Wilber: Robert, it is a pleasure to meet you. I want to start off by letting you know that I read your novel, Cactus Land, and was very moved by it. So many possible interpretations, but first off, let me congratulate you on the novel. For us, it’s rare to see a novel capture the essence of the evolutionary element of the Integral movement.
Bonomo: Ken, thanks so much for the kind words. The Integral movement has been very important for me for a long time, and I think seeing Cactus Land through the lense of the Integral experience is really the best way to understand it. As you often say, people can be in very different states and stages, and I think many of the characters in Cactus Land are perfect examples of that.
Wilber: What you describe in the novel, could be seen, from the perspective of spiral dynamics, as threshold change. We have first tier folks that in cultures like Western Europe, Canada, and America reach about fifty percent of the population and they are at the world centric or orange level; about twenty percent are at the pluralistic or green level. But then there’s this huge drop in numbers to second tier, which is only two to three percent of the population. So as the green or pluralistic stage moves into the integral stage, we expect that two or three percent to jump to about ten percent within a decade. Maybe this is a reach, but what happens at the end of Cactus Land, for me at least, was describing what happens when there is a wave of change that swings the majority to second tier. Do you think that is a possible explanation for the ending?
Bonomo: The end came to me in a dream, when I was around 16. It was an extremely vivid dream, and I was not sure what to make of it. It took me about 20 years to come to terms with it, and finally write the novel. What I am sure about is that the ending, the apocalyptic nature of it, definitely describes a major shift in consciousness. And the war elements are the fire for change, that much I am sure of. But I feel much more comfortable letting others give the interpretations; somehow, I don’t feel quite right trying to figure out what it all means.
Wilber: It is very interesting that you would have the vision at 16; it’s so typical in so many traditions that young men of that age have apocalyptic visions, Black Elk for example. Another element of the story that hit me as so fitting to our system of stages was the pseudo peace movement. It perfectly represented the green or pluralistic stage before it is able to make the leap to teal, to change tiers. We believe the changes in the world will be tremendous once the threshold is reached, it will become exponential, and something truly earth shattering will occur, metaphorically speaking, like the end of Cactus Land.
It is interesting how these things come about. Andrew Cohen, who I believe you know, found the novel in a Starbucks, just sitting on a table where had sat down. He picked it up and finished it that night; he sent me an email the next day telling me I had to read it. And here we are. One of the things I wanted to go into about the novel is the sense, at least from the end, that I believe the exact words were “we don’t need this anymore”. I think it is so fitting that the voice doesn’t disparage the book, he just indicates that it has served its purpose. Can you tell us a little about your spiritual journey?
Bonomo: Of course. I was raised Roman Catholic, but drifted in my late teens and finally fell into a comfortable agnosticism. But I always read quite a bit of Buddhism, and it marked me. Somehow, from being almost an atheist, I found myself staring at a wall and meditating, I wasn’t quit sure why, but it worked, and I found the state very soothing. I had been a heavy drinker for a long time, and the meditation is what really snapped me out of it, let me reach naturally a state that was more suitable to my stage so to speak.
Wilber: Right on brother, how many of us have wound up staring at that same wall. I want to recommend your book to anyone interested in the spiritual path, or the integral movement in general. Rarely has a novel so well captured the evolutionary shift that integral is striving for.
I have left here links to Robert’s novel and blog. KW
CLICK HERE TO PURCHASE ROBERT BONOMO’S NOVEL, CACTUS LAND ON AMAZON
ROBERT BONOMO’S BLOG
Ken Wilber is the world's leading “integral” philosopher. The author of such titles as A Brief History of Everything (1996) and A Theory of Everything (2000), his philosophy integrates body, mind, soul, and Spirit with self, culture, and nature. Integral philosophy is rapidly becoming a powerful presence in fields as diverse as politics and spirituality, psychology and business, medicine, and art.
